SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
This week, three prominent cardinals of the U.S. Catholic Church criticized the foreign policies of the Trump administration, including the seizure of Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, cuts to U.S. humanitarian aid programs and threats to seize Greenland. Our country's moral role in confronting evil around the world, sustaining the right to life and human dignity and supporting religious liberty are all under examination, Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark, Robert McElroy of Washington, D.C., and Blase Cupich of Chicago said in his statement. Cardinal Cupich joins us now. Eminence, thank you for being with us.
BLASE CUPICH: Good to be with you again, Scott.
SIMON: What prompted you to speak out? Isn't U.S. foreign policy the business of a democratically elected government and not the church?
CUPICH: When we were in Rome - the three of us - with the other cardinals, we heard many expressions of alarm by cardinals around the world about what's happening. And then the day after we finished, Pope Leo addressed the diplomatic corps accredited to the Vatican, and he raised a number of issues with regard to how we're seeing the collapse of a consensus since the second world war. That spoke to issues such as how countries relate to - deal with conflict, how we also respect each other's borders and sovereignty of nations and also to have dialogue. And so those are things that should not be forgotten that the pope wanted to raise up in his address to the diplomatic corps. And we wanted to make sure that message was extended as we spoke to people in our country.
SIMON: What about the argument, for example, that 8 million Venezuelans have voted with their feet and left their own country. It's a quarter of the population. Hasn't removing Nicolás Maduro to stand trial for drug trafficking in the U.S. opened the door to change?
CUPICH: Yes. I think that the end result of having this man brought to justice is important to recognize. But as the saying goes, the end doesn't always justify the means. The issue here is when a country that is powerful can dominate other countries simply because of their power and their ability to do so, that has not been the way the world order has worked since the second world war. At least, those are the principles that were in place. And so there has to be a worldwide consensus of how we deal with difficulties and conflicts in the world. And that's what - is something we wanted to draw attention to.
SIMON: Cardinal, you and a number of other leaders of the church have also been outspoken about the administration's current policies on removing migrants. What are your concerns?
CUPICH: So we were very clear that every country has a right and responsibility to protect its borders and safeguard its people. But the real issue here for us was the indiscriminate mass deportation of people, and the lack of a recognition that we're in this situation today because elected leaders have not done their job in having significant immigration reform. And so that is why the full Conference of Bishops made very clear that we oppose the indiscriminate mass deportation of people simply because it seems to be very unfair in its application and also doesn't put the responsibility back on legislatures to do their job and have significant immigration reform.
SIMON: Let me ask. Could a migrant or migrant family seek sanctuary at a church in your archdiocese? Would you try to prevent ICE from - ICE agents from entering?
CUPICH: Well, we have decided that we're not going to use that means. Simply because we believe that, in the long run, it sets up a conflict that really is not going to help the situation.
SIMON: National Right to Life March in Washington, D.C., was yesterday. Vice President Vance, Speaker Johnson were there. There may be Americans wondering how you in the church can be in favor of migrant rights and against abortion rights. How do you see that?
CUPICH: I don't think that it's a zero-sum game. I think our position is we're for the protection of human dignity across the board, whether it's a person on death row, immigrants, a child in the womb or the elderly with regard to increasing legislation that allows assisted suicide. So our position would be that across the board, the metric has to be how does this protect human dignity and human life?
SIMON: And a number of clergy members have been arrested in Minneapolis protesting against ICE deportations. Do you believe that there's a role of clergy in protests and offering themselves for arrest?
CUPICH: I think there's a role for citizens to take up action whenever they disagree with any public policy. And it's up to religious leaders to make sure that the moral framework in decision-making is in place. Yesterday, the Holy Father sent a message to a group of people in a meeting in Luxembourg on European security. And he said the underlying problem we have right today is a spread of relativism, a reduction of truth to one's opinion. So there have to be standards and held truths that inform our norms and values. And that is what our argument is.
SIMON: Cardinal Cupich of Chicago, thank you.
CUPICH: Good to be with you again, Scott.
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