AILSA CHANG, HOST:
Well, President Trump versus Pope Leo - in a social media post on Sunday night, President Trump sharply criticized Pope Leo XIV for his stance on the war with Iran. Then the pope, traveling in Africa this week, responded by saying that he is not afraid of the president. Joining us to explain this unusual back and forth is NPR religion correspondent Jason DeRose. Hi, Jason.
JASON DEROSE, BYLINE: Hello.
CHANG: OK. So let's just take a step back here. How did this latest exchange even start?
DEROSE: Well, Ailsa, Sunday evening, the president published a lengthy post on social media saying, quote, "Pope Leo is weak on crime and terrible on foreign policy." It criticized Leo for remarks he's made on Iran and Venezuela. And then as Trump was returning to D.C. last night, he spoke to reporters.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We don't like it. We don't like a pope that's going to say that it's OK to have a nuclear weapon. We don't want a pope that says crime is OK in our cities. I don't like it. I'm not a big fan of Pope Leo. He's a very liberal person. And he's a man that doesn't believe in stopping crime.
DEROSE: However, the pope never said it was OK for Iran to have nuclear weapons. The social media post - I should point out - also suggests the only reason Leo was elected pope was that Trump is the president of the U.S.
CHANG: And say more about how Pope Leo has responded to all of this so far.
DEROSE: Well, as you said, Leo is traveling in Africa and spoke briefly to reporters there. He said it's not - he's not a politician and doesn't want to get involved in political debates. He's a religious leader and said he's clear about his role. This was recorded on a plane, so it's a little difficult to hear.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
POPE LEO XIV: I will continue to speak out loudly against war, looking to promote peace, promoting dialogue and multilateral relationships among the states, to look for just solutions to problems. Too many people are suffering in the world today. Too many innocent people are being killed.
DEROSE: He says there he'll continue speaking out against war and promoting peace, dialogue and justice. Leo went on to say that what he's doing is speaking the gospel and that he's sorry that the president is viewing his religious message as a political one.
CHANG: Well, to be clear, Jason, this exchange is just the latest round of tension between President Trump and the pope, right? So can you just tell us more broadly what led up to this moment?
DEROSE: Well, most recently, it's been Iran. Over the weekend, the pope held a peace vigil at the Vatican, praying for peace in the Middle East. Last night, a group of cardinals appeared on CBS's "60 Minutes" program talking about their concerns, about recent actions of the Trump administration as well. Last week, Pope Leo called Trump's threat to eliminate Iranian civilization unacceptable. And he's called on people to contact their elected leaders to tell them to work for peace.
Now, last fall, the U.S. bishops issued a statement opposing the Trump administration's immigration tactics, including widespread arrests of immigrants. And then leading up to the U.S. Supreme Court arguments about birthright citizenship, U.S. bishops filed a friend-of-the-court brief opposing the Trump administration's view and making a theological argument about the dignity of all human beings.
CHANG: OK. Well, I also want to ask you about an image that the president posted to social media on Sunday night - it's gotten a lot of attention - showing Trump as Jesus, I believe.
DEROSE: Well, yes, the Trump as Jesus post, though I will say that Trump disputes that characterization of what's depicted there. I should say this post has since been taken down, but it depicted Donald Trump dressed in a white and red robe with light emanating out of his hands, apparently healing a person in bed. He's surrounded by people in medical scrubs and military camouflage, a woman praying, a man wearing a Trump hat, all of this in front of the Lincoln Memorial with an eagle and a military jet flying overhead. Now, these depictions of Trump are not unusual in some MAGA circles but given the context of the conflict between the president and Leo, the post came under a lot of criticism for suggesting Trump as a Jesus figure.
CHANG: Right. And let me just ask you, Jason, as someone who covers religion, what did you make of this whole back-and-forth so far?
DEROSE: Well, it is highly unusual for a political leader and the pope to engage in a kind of public debate like this - more unusual for a president to criticize the pope, certainly, less unusual for a religious leader like the pope to speak out in favor of peace and human dignity. Now, that said, something in Trump's initial post Sunday night struck me. He talked about his own election victory and then also talked about Leo's election and called him a weak pope. But of course, the pope is not a political leader or a law enforcement official. And so, you know, the measure of a pope is not approval ratings but the fidelity that he would say he's keeping to the teachings of Jesus.
CHANG: That is NPR's Jason DeRose. Thank you, Jason.
DEROSE: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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