SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
The Senate has voted to take away President Trump's power to wage war with Iran. It happened this afternoon. It's about the 10th time Democrats and some Republicans have tried to push this resolution through. The vote is largely symbolic because while it's headed to President Trump's desk, he's almost certainly going to veto the measure. Democratic Senator Tim Kaine has been pushing for a vote like this for years and joins us now, Hi, Senator.
TIM KAINE: Scott, good to be with you.
DETROW: What changed?
KAINE: Well, I think what changed is as the war went on - and we're in, like, about Day 110 - the consequences mounted and stacked up. Thirteen U.S. service members dead, thousands of Iranian civilians. Probably more than 50 billion already paid out of the U.S. Treasury for the war, with more to come. And Americans suffering by paying more at the gas pump. That's also in excess of $50 billion that people have paid more for gas since February 28. And so, eventually, the combined weight of these consequences convinced Republicans, especially during this fragile ceasefire, look, before you come back and start up this bombing campaign again, we're telling you this is illegal, and you need us in order to continue this war.
DETROW: I mean, the pushback is that, you know, people have noted that if Senator McConnell, a Republican, had been in the chamber today, this measure likely would have failed to get - again, this is a narrow passage. Is this a milestone moment for you?
KAINE: It is a milestone for me because remember, this is - both houses are Republican majority. And both houses' Republican majority have now said to this president, this war is illegal, and you got to stop it. Now, look, we don't expect the president's just going to follow Congress. But the president knows what it means when he starts losing votes, not only of Democrats, but in his own party. What it means is people are listening to their constituents. Their constituents are telling them this war is deeply unpopular, never should have been started to begin with. Quit punishing me at the gas pump. And that message, the president will hear loud and clear.
DETROW: I want to talk to you about the Iran war first and then, more specifically, the war powers issue. On the Iran war, what do you see as the most realistic off-ramp here? Because as you know, the Trump administration is locked in these negotiations. The concessions they seem to be getting from Iran are unpopular with Trump's Republican base and seem to quickly not stick. What to you is the best way forward realistically?
KAINE: Well, I do think a negotiated end to the war. The memorandum of understanding had 14 points to it. It's vastly inferior to the JCPOA that President Obama and America's allies negotiated over the - over a period of about two years, and yet it's still better than a stupid war. And so I want the administration to stay at the table and find the path forward. The deal is likely to have to be submitted to Congress pursuant to a bill that I wrote 10 years ago - the Iran nuclear review act - and Congress will then get to examine it and weigh in on it. But look, a bad peace deal is better than a foolish and illegal war. And so stay at the table and try to get as much agreement as we can with Iran, and don't restart, you know, a foolish bombing campaign.
DETROW: More broadly, you have been leading this at times quixotic, I would say, push to get some sort of narrowing of war powers resolutions in this post 9/11 era for a long time now, under Democratic...
KAINE: Yes.
DETROW: ...Presidents, under Republican presidents. Republicans and Democrats have now sent a bill to the president's desk. What is the next step for you to get a success that a president will sign into law?
KAINE: Well, it is the case. When I came here in 2013, I checked off against President Obama, who was a friend of mine, when he wanted to use the military without congressional authorization. I said, you know, you're using - you're proposing something good, but you can't do it without Congress. And whether it was President Obama or President Trump Term 1, President Biden, President Trump Term 2, I've said this is the most important power that Congress has. I'm the father of a Marine. We shouldn't be sending our kids into harm's way unless Congress does the job and authorizes.
So now we have done what the war powers resolution says Congress can do to stop an illegal war. And I have to step back now and say, once we've done this, I don't know that I need to do it two or three times. There are other things that I want to do. I would like to do a bill that would update the war powers resolution from the 1974 version to make it more applicable to war circa 2026. You know, you didn't have drones. War in the 1970s was between nations. It wasn't fundamentally about nonstate terrorist groups. So a number of things have changed.
Is an AI attack on a country's infrastructure - is that war? Does it have to be a bomb or can it be a cyberattack? So I do have longer-term goals with respect to the war powers resolution, but for now, I want to just make sure everybody understands what a big deal it is when in the middle of this conflict, Congress of two Republican houses have looked the president in the face and said, this war is illegal. It's time to stop it.
DETROW: That is Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat of Virginia. Thank you so much.
KAINE: Absolutely, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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